Devotions with Dre Episode 38: Inner Healing: Getting Free from Pain and Chronic Illness, with Whitney Wood

Dre: Hey everyone, it's Dre and I'm so excited to share this week's podcast with you. It is a recast.

I was on my dear friend's podcast. Her name is Whitney Wood, and A) if you are interested in a good gospel music that is amazing, check her out on Spotify or wherever you listen to music, just type Whitney Wood. And we co-wrote some of the songs that she has out, and they are some of my favorite worship songs, like In the world. I love her voice and she's amazing as a Christian artist.

And B) If you suffer from chronic pain or chronic illness. She is actually a certified pain reprocessing coach, and she has a whole course and a whole community over there of people that are getting better from chronic stuff and experiencing relief from pain. And she's up on all the latest pain science. She has clients and I don't know if she's taking more clients now, but definitely go follow her.

I will put her Instagram in the show notes.

And our conversation on her podcast, which is called Wisdom and Wellness with Whit, was actually about the concept of repentance. And we tied it into physical recovery of chronic illness.

If you don't know what those two things have in common, it took us a while to hash it out. And it is a very nuanced conversation, but it is so filled with insight. And I love how the conversation went when I was on her podcast. So she gave me permission to share it with you guys on my podcast.

You'll hear us chat about the definition of repentance, how it's been misused and abused as a concept in the church, and how the actual concept of repentance is beautiful and good. And it can even lead to a lot of relief from suffering of different kinds.

I'll share my personal story. I didn't go into my whole entire backstory because it is extensive, and I have not shared it on this podcast in its entirety yet, because I want to write out my whole testimony. But in short, it has to do with getting really physically sick after being really mentally sick and how the Lord pulled me out of both of those pits in my life and has placed me in such a good place.

I just had a birthday. I just turned forty, y'all. Oh my gosh. And I'm looking back at my life and I'm like, I feel amazing now. My life is amazing now. My birthday is always somewhere around Spotify wrapped for artists, and I had four point eight five million streams on Spotify for my pop music (Andrea Hamilton). I'll link that in the show notes as well. So I'm just, I'm not saying that to brag. I'm just truly amazed that I get to sing again, that I get to write again. And so I want to share. And this is Whitney's heart too. We want to share some of the things that helped us return to a state of thriving after our bodies went totally haywire, and after a really scary season of illness and loss.

Both of us have experienced that. And we both learned a lot about God and His goodness and how He heals. I know you're going to get a ton out of this episode, so let's jump in.

Whit: You are somebody. I feel like every time when I get around you, I like already just get I can just sense like there's, there's some people in my life who, when I get around them, it's like, I either can just like get really emotional because it's, I just sense, but like, it's just with you. I just feel like this tenderness and this intimacy, which is always just so profound.

And I'm excited to talk with you because we have just had so many really cool times together and just conversations together because I feel like we're kind of what is that word that you say? Like simpatico when it comes to maybe just like our spirits and, and similarities, but also super different and what God has been, you know, doing in our life. But so I'm just honored that you would take time to to talk with me. I've learned so much from you and I think you have so much depth and wisdom wisdom beyond your age for sure. So I'm excited for today because I just think there's a lot that I'm excited to learn and that just people are going to be really, really blessed by this.

Dre: Well, that means a lot to me because I mean, everything you just said to me, I could say to you, you're you've overcome so much and you've clung to God through so many different things. And some of our experiences are similar. But then, yeah, exactly what you said, we have completely different personalities. So it's fun to learn about you and you're so pastoral and caring and peaceful and - I don't know why you think I'm gentle, but that's really cool because I always, I always walk away from our time together. Like, I hope I didn't just emanate anxiety and, and make Whitney, like, absorb it all.

Whit: Oh my gosh, isn't that so interesting how we view ourselves. So compared to how others view us?

Dre: Yeah. Have you ever heard that term a non-anxious presence? Yes. Like becoming a non-anxious presence. I feel like you are one of my friends that I would call a non-anxious presence. Like.

Whit: Oh, wow.

Dre: It just helps my heart rate slow back down into a good range when I'm around you.

Whit: Oh, wow. Oh. Thanks, dude. That's awesome. Well, I wanted to just first. I know it's always hard. I think when either like on podcasts or ways when people are like, can you just share a little bit about your entire life in two minutes? But I would just love for just people to get even just a little glimpse of you and just a little bit of your background. Who is Andrea Hamilton?

Dre: Wow. Yeah, I know, that's, I'm like, I don't know really. Uh, well, I've, I think music is obviously a big part of it and God's a big part of it. So I would say I'm a songwriter, I'm a worship leader. I moved from Kansas to LA when I was eighteen because I knew that I wanted to write songs, and it was also the only thing I was really good at at all. So it was an easy decision.

So I've been doing that. I've been living in Southern California, creating music just for like humble, like TV and film network TV placements and random co-writing opportunities and collaborations. And I did have a year and a half to two years where I did have to kind of take a break for health reasons. And I know we'll probably talk a little bit about that because you had that same detour and we're still walking through all the health things.

And then I came came back to LA and ended up becoming a part time worship leader. I kind of try to split my time and do both of those things.

Whit: Yeah. I think something I've been just very encouraged by you and impressed with is like, you have such a desire to learn and to know things. You say humble projects, but just everybody needs to know you're a phenomenal songwriter, and I think it's very cool how you kind of encapsulate any industry like secular or worship or I mean, I hate that we have to always make them separate, but or just any musical… I just feel like you're writing really, really just transcends all those spaces. And it's so we've done a lot of songwriting together and it's some of my favorite because and I love your voice. We have like the opposite, exactly the opposite of like tone and stuff. And so yeah, I'm like, man, I wish I could like, not have so intense vibrato all the time. But we always want what we don't have, don't we?

Dre: Yeah, yeah.

Whit: And so I think obviously a place where we did really connect first off the bat was our health stuff. And I know while again, it's been similar, it's also been really different. Um, I think anybody who goes through long periods of pain of any emotional, spiritual, mental, physical, whatever. We have to be careful not to group it all into the same thing. But I think it is an honor when you do get to meet somebody going through a similar kind of a struggle, because it's just a good way to get encouraged and kind of feel like you're not completely alone, like all of these weird things happening in your life, it's not because you did anything wrong. It's not …you are not an outsider. You are not alone.

Like there's other people going through this. And so I think for me with you, I definitely sought you out. And I was asking you some questions. I remember I forget who I asked for your number.

Dre: Oh, well, we had several mutual friends being like, you guys have to talk. Yes. You have to talk. Yeah, totally. Very sick. And I was like, I think I hit my bottom health wise, like before you did maybe. And I was already back here. I had already met Trent and, you know, tried to start piecing my life back together and like, I was more active and stuff and you were like, still reeling from just your body just totally breaking down and trying to figure that out. So I don't know if I had any practical help for you, but I definitely had empathy and was able to just be like, I get that to a large degree.

Whit: Absolutely. And it's also probably a bigger a big question. But I think for me, one of my mentor, Dawn Jackson, has been really helpful lately in reminding me like one of her kind of life sayings now has what does this make possible? Oh, anytime anything in life is, you know, your plans get changed or not, not necessarily always negative. Maybe it's a positive thing, but it's, you know, it kind of changes your trajectory or whatever.

And so for me, I've just been thinking about like, what has my sickness made possible in my life? Because I think for me, it's just been this. And we wrote one of my favorite songs ever, Song of Restoration, right? It was like, it feels like everything gets paused. It feels like so much of your life gets taken away. Even just normalcy, relationships, all of that kind of stuff. And so as I've been navigating that, is there anything for you that you can think of just like this is this is what God has done in my life, not because of being sick, but this the fruit of leaning into Jesus even in the midst of insanely… And I know that we still struggle with different things. So it's an ongoing thing… But any like fruit that you've noticed in yourself from this season with physical health?

Dre: I think so I think there was a renovation that happened in my heart. And a reprioritization that really was helpful to, you know, God, like you said, it's not like he made me sick, but he definitely used it. He can use anything and he does, and he never wastes our pain. And so for me, I was like this ambitious twenty something that was ignorant and felt that she was invincible and had a lot of approval and rejection type issues and performance type mentalities that… I was saved and I even I hung out with God and I prayed, I was growing, but I had a lot of those type of strongholds where it was really helpful to be in a situation, you know, to find myself just being a human being and not being able to be a human doing.

And to know and meditate on my value before God, not changing. Even if I could never offer another thing to the world or accomplish any more performancey tasks. I would still be his daughter, and I would still be the exact same worth and value. And just having being forced to rest in that was actually pretty helpful because now I'm able to lead worship from that place. And a big ministry is if you do happen to be married, your first ministry is really like to your spouse in many ways. So to be able to be more healed and have that autonomy in God of like, I'm secure in him because we went through this dark thing together and he showed me that he's good in the most unlikely moments where the temptation would be to like, wonder if he is good.

Because your circumstances are bad. But instead, I just found him to be so good. Like it just showed. The light shined brighter in the darkness. Like God's goodness was so sweet and so real. Because it was in such stark contrast to this broken thing I was walking through. And I'm so convinced of his goodness that now that gives me a bravery in the way I minister. I don't know. I think I knew he was good before in my head. It takes divine revelation. It takes him putting it deep into your heart, the knowing that he's good, you know?

Whit: Yeah, that's really good. And it's I think too, when we all go through things, it's like there's so many facets of who God is. So it's also another opportunity to meet him in that way. I didn't know God as my healer in the physical sense until I needed him, you know, as my healer. It's like when we come up to these moments in life, it's actually, it's this crazy opportunity to get to, to meet him in that way if I'm lacking financially. That's the time when I come to meet Jehovah Jireh, my provider.

Dre: I love that really for me was he's our hope. My friend that I was emailing, you know, way too much during this time, he was. He had walked through illness. And so he was like trying to share nuggets of wisdom with me. And one of the things that really stuck with me that he said was hope is only hope in the face of hopelessness. That's what hope is. And I, I had meditated on the concept of hope a lot, but that was a new angle that actually the time you feel like there is no hope. Like that's what hope is. Like that's where you're going to actually find hope. Like when it's all about loss, you know?

Whit: That's really good. Because I think for me, it's the same like recognizing this intimacy that I've grown into with Jesus because of this journey, specifically with physical pain, it has brought me so much closer. I'm not saying I wouldn't have been close to God if I didn't get sick, but it definitely has led me onto this path that I wasn't necessarily on that trajectory before.

Like it really affected my life. So it’s the fruit that is that is obvious from those times. Speak wonders.

Dre: Yeah. Did you ever have a time where you stopped relying on doctors and food and all the things you had learned and been doing and like, realized that like, literally nothing can work besides the power of God. I had a few times where I was just like, the only way I'm going to get better… it's not all this stuff. It's not all these doctors. It's not all these diets. It's not sleeping. It's not anything. I'm too far gone physically, and I'm aware that it is going to take the power of God. Like it's going to take a miracle. And whether that's slow or fast or… all that's up to him. But I don't think the things the world has to offer are enough. And how long was I idolizing all of this? Like growing up in an affluent country and everything? How long was I just relying on worldly things? This was the first time I'd felt true hunger, like, because I. I was allergic to so many foods at one point that I. I felt how it feels to slowly, like, be starving to a degree.

And I realized, like so many people feel that often on their whole lives, like, I don't know, it's just, I mean, how we grow up and being in an affluent country, I think is a disadvantage spiritually sometimes. And that was just one of the ways that I realized like, oh, yeah, that's a real thing.

Whit: Yeah. No, that's I mean, that's because yeah, the first yeah. I mean, the first couple years - hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on everything. Yeah, absolutely. Like being so obsessed with finding the solution, right? I think I had gotten sick of asking for prayer, because I was like, clearly it didn't work last time. Like, why would I keep asking, until finally. Yeah, like, and I think for me, like you're saying, it came a huge idol. I was very addicted to… I remember when I realized I needed to get off every like supplement and everything that I was on because I had such terror of not having it.

But I also still felt horrible. So it wasn't like I was thriving once I was on everything, it was just like, I'm stuck to this being the solution. And so I went off everything. Oh yeah. I went to like even different kind of depression than I had already experienced with all of that stuff. And that was really when I like nothing worked.

Dre: Nothing worked.

Whit: Nothing worked

Dre: And God was like, because we put our hope in things that can't ultimately meet our needs. And of course, like neither one of us are saying, don't ever try anything and like, don't pursue doctors and stuff. But yes, it's, it's, I think a lot of times we, we put the work of Jesus at the end, right. And it almost has become taboo to say God as our healer is enough.

Dre: Yes. And what that looked like for me was just to further clarify we're not saying that medicine's bad and stuff. Uh, and it was just simple. It was peaceful and simple. He led me with his peace and his clarity in his wisdom. Instead of having to take thirty five thousand supplements, he would. And of course, when I would try supplements, I would react to them. My immune system could not handle hardly any of them. So it wasn't even it was just a waste of money. But every medical professional was telling me to do it, you know. No, this one will be better. And this one, it's like, oh my gosh. But in my experience, when I would just slow down and listen and ask God like, hey, I have this infection in my stomach. Is there anything I can do? Then someone comes along with activated charcoal and it's like, the only thing I don't react to. And I'm like, oh, that was easy. That was like twenty bucks,.

God was in that because he led me with his peace after I surrendered. Instead of, oh, I have to take every herb in the world to get rid of this stomach infection. And then I'm like, in the hospital because I overdid it, you know?

Whit: Right. No, that's so powerful.

Dre: That's striving.

Whit: That's striving. Absolutely. Yeah. That's really, really powerful what you're saying, because it's in everything. Seek God first. And yet, we often forget and we kind of like, okay, if medicine, if this stuff that I know should work doesn't work, then maybe I'll, maybe I'll go to you now, God and, and figure it out. And I feel like I'm in, I'm in more of a place. I feel the best that I've felt in a while. And I'm doing the least amount of things I've ever done right. And so

Dre: and some of that's the result of the mind body connection stuff that you've been totally practicing the past couple of years and stuff.

Whit: Totally. But it's yeah, even seeing God in that new way and like approaching health from a, from a perspective of like how God has actually made us perfectly, like we are complete and we are whole.

Dre: Think about how much stuff you, you have healed from, even if someone's listening, that's super sick, right? Look at how much stuff you've healed from. You used to have an injury that is now fine. You used to have a grief that is now in in its proper place in your heart. Like you have healed so much already.

Because God put that ability within how he created us. We are made to heal from a lot.

Whit: We are and like in like you're saying, in tandem with him and asking him because yeah, it's not like medicine or Jesus, it's not therapy or Jesus. I believe Jesus is absolutely at the top of all of it. Can we be healed without therapy? Absolutely. Can we be healed with therapy? Absolutely. I go to a therapist, so I'm very

Dre: I do too. Yeah.

Whit: Yeah. So it's not, it's not either or, but it also is remembering to put Jesus in the proper place that he is first.

Dre: Yeah. And I don't know, this is a random side note. We're in America. So this is this has been my experience. Most of the health care I've received has been in America, the United States specifically. A lot of people aren't the best at what they do. And if you're a trickier case, you're going to have people that waste your time or tell you the wrong thing. And that's just where that's where we're at with our health care system.

Not everyone is the top at the top of their game. Not everyone is so wise. So you have to kind of be your own. Like you need to vet even with therapists. Like, so it applies to medical doctors and functional medicine practitioners and all the physical stuff, but it also applies to therapy and coaching.

There's so many people doing it. Who is that top ten percent person that can really, really help you in your trickier case? And that's who I really am grateful that God eventually has led me to some people who I'm like, oh, they just have a lot more wisdom about the thing that I'm coming to them for.

Whit: No, it takes a while. It can take a while. It is a journey. And I think something that is also for both of us, that is some fruit that has come out of these seasons is I do think, and I it's hard for me to say, but I'm just learning to speak more highly of myself, even out loud. But I mean, I think both of us really have learned a lot of wisdom in it.

And I really think there is a depth to us and to our heart of understanding of like, who God is, what he says, what he's saying to his people. They're definitely there's this this great hunger in you. And so, to kind of turn to kind of what we were thinking about talking about today. And I also love, like, whenever you start to talk to people and God's like, I know you really want to talk about this, but I want to talk about this, but I do think it fits. It fits really well into this because of this desire to just go, go deeper and to know the heart of God.

And there's some topics that I think are just harder to talk about when it comes to even just biblical understanding. And in the past, I definitely have been somebody who wants to just read the passages that feel good and the ones that I like already, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm on board with this, you know, and then there's other topics where it's like, ah, this is a little, this is a little harder for me to, to comprehend or this is harder because this feels maybe more judgy or you know what I mean? And, so we were in a session together and we just started talking about the subject of repentance.

And, and I love that because I think it's something I've just been learning recently too. And just digging deep into, I posted about it a couple weeks ago. So I've been doing this morning routine every day and I talk about it too. I have a whole podcast on my morning routine and how I'm this hippy who sits in the grass barefoot every morning. I have my cup of coffee, you know, I start my day off with thanks and praise and I just, I want to make sure I get that out. I just want to thank God, you know, it's Enter his gates with thanks. And, you know, it's like we are commanded to do that. And so started my day off with that. But then also I've been incorporating this practice of daily and morning repentance and just coming to him.

And I realized, like, as I started it I always have a lot more like I, oh,

Dre: and I did that now that I, yeah,

Whit: yeah, about it. Like now that we're on the, on the topic of this, I so, and I just feel like you have a lot of wisdom in this. I would just love to kind of start it off. What do you think biblical repentance is? And then what do you think a lot of people have interpreted repentance to be?

Dre: Yeah. Well, first, I love what you said a moment ago about wisdom, and I do think that's been a big part of both of our healing journeys. And it's not bragging on ourselves. It's God's wisdom. He gives us wisdom freely. So in the beginning of the book of James, it says, if anyone lacks wisdom, they should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault.

Then the next sentence leads us to our topic of this podcast. But when they ask, they should believe and not doubt. Because if you're doubting you're a double minded person and you're not going to really get anything out of that. So repentance, one aspect of repentance is noticing your double minded somewhere and rejecting the part where your flesh is talking, and coming into alignment with the part that God's Spirit in you is talking and, and kind of believing that, yeah, that is wisdom.

So I think the reason people avoid the topic of repentance is, well, there's probably two main reasons. And you can, you can throw in some reasons too. I'm sure you have a lot of insight on it. But looking at again, our context is the modern North American church. We have had a lot of people condemn and, and speak out of a place of arrogance and hate instead of love. We've been in a context where in the evangelical Protestant world, in North America, about one third of our lead pastors have diagnosable levels of narcissism. That's like a known that's like an actual statistic. It's like the second worst level of narcissism in head leadership in all the industries, you know, out of all industries.

So we've had these pastors talk about repentance in a way that's evil instead of right, you know?

So we've grown up with kind of a reaction to that. A lot of us that is self-protection. Because it's been used as a weapon. But really, this all needs to fall under the umbrella of God's goodness, that there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that he asks us to come to him so he can heal and forgive us. So when we're repenting, we're really just coming to a Father that we know is good and that wants to give good gifts to his children, and that wants to welcome us back to a place of integrity before him, time after time after time.

It doesn't matter how many times you've done the thing, like he still has enough grace if you're genuinely coming to him like, okay, I'm I'm here. I'm still here. I did it again. Like it does not run out.

So I think that's one reason that people avoid the topic of repentance is that there's wounding there. And that's legit. But we do need to make sure we're not stuck operating out of that place of wounded when God wants to heal that wound in our soul and, like, give us the right understanding and definition of this beautiful thing called repentance.

Secondly, I think it's because we are in our flesh and in our kind of immaturity, wherever we're at in our faith, a lot of us are just in a place of a little bit of immaturity when it comes to repentance, where it hurts to admit that we have something to repent of. And it's not the funnest feeling until you get used to it, until you really are focused on the good that's going to come out of it.

It then becomes this kind of not a big deal. Of course I'm going to repent the second I realize I need to, because it's worth it every time. Because the reward is, is an intimacy with God. So I think those are the two main reasons that it's difficult.

Whit: Yeah, that's really good. Also, I think sometimes we think that biblical repentance is like so focused on like our emotions and our effort. And a lot of times it's just about surrender. If God is good, then I have the ability to surrender whatever it is I'm holding in my hand because I know that he does know better and he wants better for me. It's not that he's asking us to repent because he needs it - he needs us to do that for him, but that he knows that. Yeah. Like you're saying, repentance is it brings restoration. It brings reconciliation and relationship. When I think of repentance, I think of like in a relationship, like if I've done something wrong to you. Usually if we come and we talk about it, there's actually bigger, greater intimacy that's grown from that because we're also learning. I'm learning to trust you more as you respond, right? God never responds inappropriately to our repentance.

Dre: He doesn't really get triggered, thankfully.

Whit: God does not get triggered. I'm so thankful for that.

Dre: He's so whole. He doesn't have like wounds like we do, you know? He's safe to come to with being honest. So I think so. Yeah. So the biblical definition of repentance, this is something I feel like I'm still in elementary school on, but it means to turn and it means to realign yourself with the direction that God is wanting you to walk. So it can be as simple as realizing you're doing something and maybe you meant to. Maybe you didn't even mean to. Maybe God's pointing out, hey, did you notice how a lot of your thoughts are filled with self-hatred? And you're like, oh, okay. Help me stop. Like I'm sorry.

I recognize that that's not the way you want me to move forward. That's really kind of all it is. And it's not a big Self-Flagellation. He's already paid for our sins upon the cross. We are just walking in… We're using our free will to submit and surrender. Like you said, we're choosing to walk in the way he has for us. And if we've gotten off the path, we're we're correcting. And some things are harder to have victory in than others. So let's say you have an addiction or some sort of recurring habit or sin. The posture of repentance is simply coming to the Lord and admitting the magnitude of it, admitting the times you've partnered with it, admitting that you need him desperately and you can't get out of this on your own.

It's not promising you'll never do it again. And then when you do it again, it's like, oh, I guess that didn't work. Repentance is pointless. Like, no, you're going to have to address this over time. But that is repentance. It's walking in the right direction. Or what do you think about.

Whit: Yeah. No, that was really good because I, I was literally just going to say, what do you think of some like just practical ways of like, what does it mean to repent? And I think that is so good because I definitely think there's something for each one of us that we struggle with habitually. So like you're saying, there's some things that are easier to, to let go of and to give to God. And then there's other things that it can just take longer. And I think maybe some of the repentance can be scary is it's like I've done this like, okay, Lord, I literally just said this yesterday and I'm coming back again. And I'm just sorry because I was operating in my flesh. I was, I was being selfish.

And again, here in North American church, the grace culture, which is needed, I think humanity, it's like we were so like revelation and like death and doom and all of this stuff, and then we've kind of swayed over to God has already paid for your sins, so don't sweat it kind of a thing.

An imbalance - it keeps people kind of immature. So it's this place of like, absolutely God has, has, has redeemed us. There's so much grace. And then there's the aspect of his mercy, you know, that we have to factor into it. But like you said, it's not this lengthy process. I wonder if and this is not at all a a bagging on, you know, the Catholic Church. But I think there I've met a lot of Christians who came from a Catholic religion. And so they have that that in their head, you know, they need to go to someone to be able to have their sins forgiven and some of that stuff.

And so I think there's some of that narrative that kind of lingers in people. Do I have to admit it to a person? You know, do I have to what do you think about that? I think that can be kind of nuanced as well.

Dre: Well, it's, it's always probably, it's probably always fine to admit it to God first and then ask him if you need to tell a person and ask them who that person might be. So the reason I'm so passionate about repentance is that I've had to do it so much, and I think it saved my life.

So I'm coming from this place. I'm, I am willingly acknowledging publicly that I have to repent so much. I'm a hot mess. And that's why I love I love talking about it because it has really saved me so many times. Like it's put me back on the right path. And I'm so glad every time I've repented. I'm so glad I did. I have so many examples. I mean, yeah, the thing you said about Grace culture seeker friendly megachurch vibes. It's true. It's just not the only thing that's true. It's true. Your sins are taken care of. God accepts you. And love is more powerful than anything that would separate you from him. That's absolutely true. And that's a huge revelation. That's incredible.

But I, I wouldn't want to just not learn anything else about God and His holiness and living in victory. Because those are cool too. So I think we shy away from talking about things that will offend people. And that's a huge battle for any church to combat. So for me, like just some random examples of repentance. And I think I'll give one that's recent and then I'll give one that was a while ago and more ingrained.

So recently I was with my friends that do deliverance ministry. I was just going there to hang out and chat, but we ended up in this prayer session of course. So my friend got a word from the Lord that, hey, I think God wants you to repent of this particular attitude you've had regarding your husband. Now, I mean, this had not occurred to me. It never had come to my mind before. I don't even either I wasn't listening or God hadn't said it yet. Hey, you repent of this particular like attitude you've been having. But as soon as she said it, I was like, okay, let's do it.

What could go wrong? Like, let's just in case, you know.

Whit: And was she like a trusted person?

Dre: Yes.That's very important. I don't put myself under. I'm kind of picky nowadays. I don't if you're gonna get a word from the Lord for me about something I need to repent of, like, that's right. I'm going to need to know that you're pretty legit. So anyway, she is, she is so. And it rang true in my heart when she said it. And so I prayed out loud, just like God, I repent of this attitude that regarding my husband and kind of wrong, wrong beliefs I've had regarding him regarding our marriage, like I was just like anything that I have thought or said or, or partnered with. That's not what you have for us. Like, I am so sorry. Like I, I repent, I break that off like I am. I seriously don't want to mess this up.

And that day, our relationship changed. My husband and I, we don't have a perfect relationship, but it is better than it was before that day, man. Like it actually changed something. And the only way I can describe it is like it shifted something in the atmosphere around us, in our home and in our conversations. And it was me, and I didn't even realize it.

But I'm so grateful for that chance to repent because a lot of times it'll kick the enemy out of certain corners of your life, you know?

Whit: Right. Well, yeah. And I feel like I was going to add to that, like, repentance is an act of warfare, a spiritual warfare.

Dre: That is a huge part of deliverance.

Whit: Yeah, absolutely. So that, I mean, that's so huge. And I mean, when James, when he says, resist the devil, he will flee. But submit yourselves. Like that's such a huge part of it. And part of yeah, like you're saying, submission requires repentance. Because there's so much of us that cannot go where God wants to take us.

Dre: We're like, stopping ourselves.

Whit: Yeah. Yeah.

Dre: And that's not a condemnation thing. Like, okay, so the other example I had was so I used to have OCD. I'm subclinical now. So obviously you, many of us may know that OCD affects your thoughts. And our thoughts are kind of a big battlefield for like, are we going to obey God? Or are we going to think thoughts that are erroneous to his truth? And when you have OCD, those thoughts are sometimes happening really rapidly and really loudly. So I always felt like there were certain areas of my life where I would just loop these worries and loop these negative thoughts and I'd never been in anyone else's brain to compare. So you may think, oh, well, that's not your fault. You had a mental illness. And I would agree with that. And so what do you have to repent of? That's just OCD.

Okay, well, this is where I think we can explore repentance with more nuance. Because when I finally got to the place in my relationship with God where I could repent of things without necessarily fully blaming myself for them. Some things you can just repent of when he brings it to mind. Um, even if it you don't have to even know if it was for sure a sin or not, or if it was your fault or not, or if it was realistic to expect yourself to not do that thing after what you've been through or whatever. Like none of that matters.

The only thing that matters is you can repent anyway. So why not just do it in case? So along the way on my healing journey, I would realize, oh, well, this part of that I partnered with, or I believed or I lingered on longer than I, maybe I probably did have the strength to move on sooner.

Like anything I could find that was on me. Like I found myself in a situation with the mental illness - that wasn't my fault. But I did have the opportunity to decide how I was going to walk through it and respond and pray. So I guess I say that to say like repentance doesn't always mean, oh, everything's totally my fault, you know?

Whit: That's huge.

Dre: Sometimes it's just like, no, I don't want to think this way anymore. I don't want to do this thing anymore. And I'm just, I just want to come in humility before God.

Whit: Yeah, that's. I gotta take a minute with that. That's really big. That's really big. You're. We don't have. It's not even that it's our fault. That's huge. So would you say like, things that have required repentance are maybe like partnering with a spirit of fear?

Dre: Oh, yeah. Well, that is what I, yeah, I, I'm, I'm pretty heavy on the deliverance side of things. And I know that everyone has different gifts, but whenever I take those gift texts, like tests, like some of my top ones are like discerning spirits and casting them out, so walking through it, therapy helped. Cognitive behavioral therapy is amazing. Some people with OCD medication, like I will affirm all those things are true because it's an actual mental illness.

And also, yeah, it's a spirit of fear. That's literally what it is. That is what it is. And it's a stronghold that digs its talons into people's minds over years or over decades sometimes. And that's why repentance is important, to start, to begin to walk in a new direction. And kind of retrain how we're responding to those thoughts.

That's really one example.

Whit: No, but that's just, I mean, I don't know how I want to expound on that, but that's like, that's like, that's really big because yeah, what you're saying is, wow, because I think mental illness right now is huge. And so none of it is saying that in a sense, like you brought this depression onto yourself or this anxiety or this, you know?

Dre: Yeah, this is when you learn about the spirit realm. It's not fair. They don't wait for opportunities that are fair. Most of it comes from trauma. When we're like young and that's not our fault, obviously. But we find ourselves in that dealing with some of the results of somebody else's sin or of being in a broken world in general. And there we are.

So it is on us when we come to that place where we can handle that conversation with God, and he starts to prompt us to begin to dig into that area. Now, we do have a choice. You know, the stuff that caused me to fear or whatever wasn't my fault, but now I'm an adult, and now I'm a child of God. And now I know that there's a better way that he's offering me. So sometimes it's just turning away from like what you used to do to survive and stepping into the, the more peaceful thing he has for you to walk in in the future. Just being willing to grow.

Whit Wow. That's really yeah, that's just really good. I feel like it releases so much of like the thoughts of like, like repentance. I think it feels so coupled with like shame and guilt and condemnation and all of those really big words. And so yeah, to know that sometimes we just operate in things that aren't best for us.

And like you're saying, we have our limited capacity and knowledge and understanding. And when God finally gives us maybe a new revelation, or like you're saying, you had this peace that like I do need to repent for this, that there's freedom that comes from that. And it's his, it's the like that just even increases how much of a loving and good God we have.

Dre: Yeah, exactly.

Whit: Like he doesn't want us to partner with these things that not because it's religious. And I need you to do a, b, c, d e f g. It's just he knows what's best for us and he wants what's best for us. And … I don't know if I've heard of it that way.

Dre: Yeah. Well, and what's best for us is not to sin too. So I mean, I still have times where I'm repenting of sin for sure. Like I did something knowingly. Like that still happens too.

Whit: Yes.

Dre: So yeah, it's all of it.

Whit: Yeah, it's all of it. So that's so good. So taking into account the things that I did willingly and knowingly, we are human and the to the greatest, you know, leader and person who loves Jesus and has the best walk, they will knowingly be disobedient daily. You know, we sin daily. So there are things that we are always... But how beautiful is that? It's just like this continual relationship. And it's more of even like this checking in to like he says, like, search me and know my thoughts.

I feel like repentance can also produce intense humility because what I am saying is, like everything in here, God is submitted to you. And so I don't own any of it, everything I am is yours. And so it's just this taking this inventory. Okay, what do I yeah, it's not shameful. It's like, okay, Lord. What? Let's take a minute. Like, you know what, what is there anything in me right now that you just desire to bring to the surface so I can give it to you?

Dre: That's so beautiful. Yes, I love that.

Whit: I think of in I can't remember if it's first or second Corinthians, but when Paul is, is talking back to the church and he's like, hey y'all, sorry about that really intense letter I sent. I know that like it really messed you up and it grieved me to be so intense. But now I am so proud of what has resulted in this

Dre: because they actually listened and repented

Whit: because they actually listened and it and it produced actual change. Which is, is amazing, right? Like, I think good fruit, good change can just come from a painful experience. Mhm. And I think sometimes too, repentance can be painful. And oftentimes it is just because it's uncomfortable. I think we, we live in or we operate in these states of guilt. And if I did, you know, if I have to say I'm sorry, it's because I, you know, we go so internal, I'm a bad person. A good person wouldn't have to repent. A good Christian wouldn't have to, you know.

Dre: I don't know where we get those thoughts, but. Yeah.

Whit: Right. I don't know. I don't know where we do either, but I just love that he was like he was loving the church and giving them just some loving correction. And from that, we just see all of this, all of this fruit drawn. I think. What's the other verse in Romans? It's his kindness that draws us to repentance.

Dre: Yeah. His kindness. Because if you can't trust that, you're just going to keep hiding. So it's once you know that he is going to be able to handle it and love you unconditionally. Like that's those are the people that end up having repentance in their lifestyle and walk. It's the ones that have been convinced that he's good and he loves them and he's safe to do so.

Whit: Wow. Yeah.

Dre: I've even talked with more than one deliverance ministry person. The ones I really, really admire, They pray and they don't just do deliverance on anyone. They pray and they ask like, is this person ready? Is their free will ready to stop partnering with whatever is going on is tormenting them or whatever? Because if not, it's just going to happen again. So you don't want to wear yourself out as a deliverance minister, you know. I know that sounds kind of strange if you're not familiar with that, like particular conversation, but yeah, it you can pray for anyone. You can intercede for anyone. But we also have to respect people's free will because God does. And he's letting them make their own decisions, right? So we have to be patient with people too, Maybe they aren't quite there yet.

Whit: That's interesting. What do you if you know, do you think what are some factors that like make people ready or not?

Dre: Oh my goodness, I don't know. That's a huge question. And any, any of us who have like close people in our lives and loved ones who you know in your gut that there's something they're not ready to surrender to God yet. And it hurts to watch because you're like, you could be more free, you know? It's like, well, what does cause somebody to be ready and to make that choice? I don't, I mean, I don't know. That is a huge question. That is, why do some people come to Jesus and other people refuse to.

Whit: Yeah. Right.

Dre: That's the ultimate repentance, right?

Whit: Right. No, that is big something. You know, I've been just getting a lot more words lately from people and kind of just checking them and testing them and, you know, see if they really resonate. And a lot of them have been, I think for me, something that I would say, it's not that I'm not ready to repent of it. It's just really difficult would be this like self-flagellation that I can tend to do.

And I remember I had a conversation with my dad about this and he was like when all you're doing is essentially crapping on yourself. Really what it is, is it's kind of a self-obsession, which turns it essentially into self-worship because all I'm doing is worshipping. It's just self-worship. All my attention is fixed on that. And so that's something I'm really working on right now because I find myself in these spaces. I feel just not qualified. And you know, all of that kind of stuff. And we've talked well,
Dre: I definitely feel like I've dealt with a lot of like that was probably, if you asked me what my biggest stronghold was in my whole life, it was probably self rejection. Like rejection. Which leads to self-hatred, That's a huge stronghold. That's. A whole process.

Whit: Yes. Yes. And I think that's that's huge for so many of us. Is this rejection of self - I have been trying to navigate that in a way where, where daily I'm like, God, I'm so sorry that I rejected the very thing that you made and called good. So that's been what I've been trying to partner with as I'm like processing it. I'm not trying to be like, Lord, I'm so sorry. I'm so obsessed with myself. I'm so vain. Like, it's not even because that can just turn into another session of rejecting myself, you know, but like, rather, just trying to partner with. Okay, Lord, you know, your thoughts are not my thoughts.

So I would love to start navigating and holding on to your thoughts rather than the ones that I have. In my time of trying to come daily to God and lay down these things and, and repent. And it's, that's definitely one of the biggest ones where it's, it's just trying to partner with Lord, what you made is good. It is good, including me, including me. So I'm sorry that I just continued to bash on the thing that you created.

And for me, that is has found some resolve. And there's so much deeper. I've done a lot of stuff to with rejection and going through… you gave me that book, The Spirit of Rejection.

Dre: Oh man, cleansing stream

Whit: cleansing stream. That was a really good one. But yeah, it's, it's such a, it is a process.

Dre: Have you ever heard people in the wellness space talk about self-hatred, self rejection, and its supposed tie to autoimmunity?

Whit: I have.

Dre: What are your thoughts on that?

Whit: So yeah, I was just reading. It's called the Ace study Adverse Childhood Event study. And it has been talking about those who have higher levels of trauma actually have higher rates of autoimmunity, even like diabetes, cancer, all of those different kinds of things. And so, man, it makes a lot of sense to me, and I think that there's something that the enemy has kind of just dug his spirit into that as well. Because I think, man, the Bible is so it's like everything in psychology is just so brilliantly weaved from the Bible.

Like when it talks about renewing your mind and like taking every thought captive. Like the Lord knows

Dre: that's what CBT is.

Whit: He knows like this is just the stuff that we deal with. And so I think, yeah, when we just kind of bury this trauma, we learn to not express it. We learned, you know, we're freaked out of this word repentance. We hold all of this stuff in. And I think our body just has its own capacity. And then at some point, it starts to kind of just dwindle because we are holding.. I think emotional, spiritual, physical ramifications in our tissues and our cells because... And then the enemy just is like, sweet. This is a great little foothold for me to kind of just go ahead and step on into or he could be the root of it first and then, you know, the body just follows.

Dre: Yeah. And not everyone who… it's not like it's fair again, because the demonic realm is not fair or kind or anything of the sort... So some people, you'll see that they went through a lot of trauma and they didn't get an autoimmune disease. So it's not going to be a one hundred percent correlation. But, I definitely know that in my story, it there was a increased chance of bogging down of my immune system. Because well, obviously getting bit by a tick is part of my story.. That wasn't my fault.

But the anxiety, the fear of man, the constant, all the sleep I lost, all the striving, all the fear of. And definitely childhood trauma and things. It's like, of course it affected my long term immune responses. And of course it of course, that is part of it.

Whit: And there's been different studies shown on personality traits that tend to also navigate in like the autoimmune disease, a little bit like it kind of correlates a little bit because if someone is maybe more of like a perfectionist or, you know, heard the term like Goodist, sometimes these, these different characteristics and personality traits can, can aid in just maybe a little bit more suppression and just some not saying that if you're a perfectionist, you automatically are going to have these unhealthy characteristics, but it's… because and they say autoimmune disease is way more prevalent in women than men. So that's just an interesting thing to note.

There was a study put out and absolutely nothing political or like aside on this, but they were just showing some of the higher rates in Covid. Number two was mental health, like considering it like a comorbidity and a factor when it came to, to someone passing..

Dre: Because if you're in a, if you're in a situation where you're having some serious mental health… Stuff happening, you're not going to be able to fight a virus as effectively. Your adrenals are going to be all tired. And yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Yeah.

Whit: Yeah. So it is man, that yeah. Like the spirit of fear and rejection and all of that stuff mixed with our physical body is just pretty. And then the, the actual physiological component of what fear actually does to your cells and to your tissues and to all of that stuff. There's so much to that too. So it's like, oh, it's a big one.

Dre: Yeah. Fear is a big, big thing. That's why the Bible tells you a lot of times to not do it. It's like God almost new.

Whit: It's like he knew. Yeah, he knew this would be something that we struggle with. And he's like, I actually, I have some good strategies here for you that I know are best. And yet we so quickly are like, I'm gonna go check this out first. And just go ahead and see like at the beginning, like you were saying, like,

Dre: I know our whole conversation just wrapped around

Whit: aha. Yes. No, absolutely. It's like, let me just let me dabble in all this first, Lord, because and we talked about this too, and this is just super random, but I, there was this one health professional and they were very spiritual. And I'm not even going to say his name or what he did, but I remember I was doing a certain program and then I realized I was like, yo, this guy is completely functioning like in the demonic realm.

And I'm actually taking advice because there was like different nutritional advice or whatever. And there were like things, people were having great benefits. And this was in the beginning, closer when I was just like desperate to try anything, you know?

And so then

Dre: I listened to more New Age sources at that time, too.. Like trying to strive to get well. Yeah.

Whit: Yes.

Dre: And again, that's pretty. What are you going to do? You're like scared. You're dying - I even say that I admit that freely, knowing that I don't have condemnation for myself.

Whit: Right. Right. Understandable. Exactly. Yeah. Someone's offering something that sounds really valid. And so you're like, yeah, I'm gonna try it. And then yeah, later on, I was like, I think I was partnering with. And that was something that I did end up just just bringing to God and repenting for. And again, not in this shame or self-condemnation way, but just like, yeah, no, that wasn't, I think I, I partnered with a spirit that wasn't of you.

Dre: So I, Lord, I don't want to be under someone that whenever I can help it, I don't want to be under somebody that is learning this stuff where if you dig deeper into the stuff they're learning. It's like super, not Christian.

Whit: No, absolutely. And, and I, yeah, there's so many things I want to talk about when it comes to the physical wellness space and just spirituality, because I think a lot of Christians, it is very easy to get sucked into some of the way of thinking with the best of intentions and you know what I mean? The heart for Jesus and all of that stuff. But then it's, yeah, it can get convoluted.

Dre: There's a huge, there's a huge, like new age spirituality influence in our culture. So of course we're going to hear these phrases and not know where they come from and have to learn all that over time. But yeah, nowadays I'm pretty picky. Yeah. With what I'll practice and try and do and say and who I'll come under authority of.

Whit: Yes, that's really good

Dre: because I really got more and more exclusive as I learned how big of a deal the spiritual component was to my physical healing. I'm just very, very picky now. Yeah.

Whit: No. It's good. As we close is there… just a word of wisdom that you would want to leave everybody with. What would that be?

Dre: I do vaguely remember you asking me that, and I did not prepare one. I think just thinking about our conversation. I mean, we could talk about this for five more hours and still not hash it all out because there's so many components to what God is walking us through and teaching us. But I guess if I tried to boil it down, it would be that God is a bondage breaker. He wants us free and healed and whole. That is his will for us. And not everything that we're experiencing is our fault. But some of it might be he can handle that, too.

But that his. It's his love that heals and his love is greater. It's a greater force than any illness or anything else that you're experiencing in your life that may be from the enemy or just a product of a broken world. God is present and able.

So we need to meditate on those truths until we really, really believe them and operate in them. And do I do that perfectly? No. But I'm so glad that I can correct and redirect whenever I get off course.

And, that's why repentance is beautiful because he's constantly drawing us back to him.

Whit: That's really good. Would you maybe be down to just pray and. Yeah, I think, gosh, what you said about the repenting for things that just aren't even I don't that just, I mean, that just that really hit me. And so I, I can only assume that there's somebody here maybe listening who there might be just a lot of freedom in that phrase that you said. So maybe with that and just whatever, like the Spirit leads you to just to kind of pray over that.

Dre: Yes. Let's definitely pray. God, father God, you're so good and loving. And we know that we can come to you and there will be understanding in your eyes no matter what has happened in our lives, no matter how much of a mess everything is around us, Your goodness is so constant and you have the power to heal. You have the power to deliver and to mend our hearts and set us free and bring us into the whole perfect life you have for us, walking with you every day and then eventually being with you in heaven.

We know we're on that trajectory. So everything that doesn't line up with that God, we, we just want to get it off of our shoulders right now. And we pray, God, that you would bring to mind anything that we can cut out of our lives. Anything we can repent of, anything that we can stop believing or partnering with and God. Anything that doesn't belong in your perfect will for us. Lord, we humble ourselves. We surrender. Because we know you love us and we know that you're good. And that's really all we need to know.

And we come to you with a heart of repentance for ourselves and for just the Church as a whole. Lord, we we want to do things your way. We want to wait on you. We want to be guided by Your Holy Spirit alone. We want to grow into maturity and not be operating in the flesh or be stuck in immaturity. Lord, all these things are so beautiful and we're so glad we welcome your will into our lives.

And we just want to do everything your way. So we pray to learn more and more about the beauty of repentance. And we pray to be more like you, Jesus. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

Whit: Amen.